black...

yes put her to a black and you have a chance of a black based foaly !!!

Well if they black as in black and not derivatives of black (ie bay, buckskin) he would be AA thus making black based dilutes (smoky black, smoky cream) impossible. They may also mean he cannot produce a black based dilute by himself. i.e. he can't produce buckskin or smoky black when bred to a chestnut.

That being said, yes if he is bred to a black based mare he could have buckskin/smoky black.

[quote="hoofpick"]Ok Saphiro is tested as cremello and can not produce a black based dilute. My uneducated question is why? What if put to a black? Probably simple but .... :oops:[/quote]
Cremello (ee) can ONLY give red-based base color to the foal. The [i]OTHER PARENT[/i], if black-based(EE or Ee), CAN give a black-based color to the foal. [i]...but that black-base will *always* come from the other parent, never from Saphiro.[/i] ;)

If bred to an EE, the foal will always be black-based. When bred to an Ee, the foal will be black-based only if the foal inherits the E from the Ee parent. If it inherits the e, the foal will be red-based (ee).

He CAN have black based foals for certain. He may just not be able to have smokey blacks and the like. We'd have to know more about how he tested.

What are you talking about?

e cannot make an E. E would have to come from a differnt parent. If the horse in question is a cremello, then it is a double dilute and I thought all offspring would receive one copy of the cream gene from that parent in addition to an e for base-color.
Are you perhaps discussing the presence of agouti? ...and if agouti is present the horse would never be able to sire smokey black or smokey cream because it would always be bay-based due to an (AA) agouti status?

Essentially Heidi. His offspring wouldn't necessarily be AA, they could be just Aa (if he's AA himself).

ANY 'ee' can have a black based foal. :D Not all horses (ee, Ee, or EE) can have a true black foal (black, smokey black, etc.).

Come again? I see the words you've typed, but it's all gibberish in my head.

What am I missing? :? I [i]have[/i] to be missing something...

How can an ee, produce an E? ee cannot. Now, if that ee is bred to an EE or Ee, only *then* can it have black-based progeny, but the E will never come from the ee parent, only from the EE or Ee parent.
Isn't that correct?

What, exactly, is being discussed in this topic?
Because I don't understand the point you are trying to make about "not all horses can have a true black foal (black, smokey black, etc.)" Well, yeah, I'll agree with that, but on the flip side of that record ... some horses *can*, so I don't understand what bearing it has in regard to the original question of: "Saphiro is tested as cremello and can not produce a black based dilute."
WHY couldn't he? He most certainly *could* sire one IF the mare were black-based and she passed that E gene to their foal, 'cause if that foal receives her E gene ... it certainly will be black-based.
I'll come back to my earlier question ... are you discussing the presence of agouti in regards to siring black or bay out of black-based mares and if Saphiro is AA, he can never sire a black because it would always be bay, buckskin or perlino?

I think she means that if he's homozygous for agouti, even if bred to a homozygous black, then the results would never be solid black or in this case smokey black..... (?)

That's just it Heidi, we don't know which she means. ANY horse can produce an 'E_' foal. Not all horses can produce an 'aa' foal. If he's 'AA' he will NEVER have a smokey black, etc., no matter what he's bred to. but it's possible they were merely saying that because he is 'ee', but that would be inaccurate IMO.

Ok I've just looked up the only Saphiro I know (a cremello PRE, Lusitano)... he is 'ee AA CRCR'. So no, he will NEVER have a smokey black or any derivative of black no matter what he is bred to. ALL of his foals will receive an agouti copy and will be bay/brown or red based.

That's him! and thanks guys! :flower

[quote="accphotography"]That's just it Heidi, we don't know which she means. ANY horse can produce an 'E_' foal. Not all horses can produce an 'aa' foal. If he's 'AA' he will NEVER have a smokey black, etc., no matter what he's bred to. but it's possible they were merely saying that because he is 'ee', but that would be inaccurate IMO.

Ok I've just looked up the only Saphiro I know (a cremello PRE, Lusitano)... he is 'ee AA CRCR'. So no, he will NEVER have a smokey black or any derivative of black no matter what he is bred to. ALL of his foals will receive an agouti copy and will be bay/brown or red based.[/quote]

Ha! I meant you, but yes, the owner too....That's the only thing I could figure as well.

[quote="accphotography"]That's just it Heidi, we don't know which she means. ANY horse can produce an 'E_' foal. Not all horses can produce an 'aa' foal. If he's 'AA' he will NEVER have a smokey black, etc., no matter what he's bred to. but it's possible they were merely saying that because he is 'ee', but that would be inaccurate IMO.

Ok I've just looked up the only Saphiro I know (a cremello PRE, Lusitano)... he is 'ee AA CRCR'. So no, he will NEVER have a smokey black or any derivative of black no matter what he is bred to. ALL of his foals will receive an agouti copy and will be bay/brown or red based.[/quote]

Okay, now I understand; you *did* mean agouti. You seriously confuzzled me, earlier. :rofl
Be aware that your statement was confusing in regards to the whole black-based/EE-Ee-ee/black business.
...that was what I wanted you to clarify and I did ask you several times if you meant agouti. :hammer

Because when you are speaking about how progeny from [color=#000080]"Not all horses (ee, Ee, or EE) can have a true black foal"[/color], you *meant* AA/Aa and no 'true blacks' as in no *solid black phenotypical color* because the black-based offspring would be modified by agouti … [i]and unable to be a visually solid black[/i] … as the black-base would become agouti/bay ... that, I understand.

But when you say this: [color=#000080]"ANY 'ee' can have a black based foal."[/color] you are contradicting known knowledge. Do you realize how confused that statement made me? That is why I was asking you repeatedly if you meant non-black as in agouti-influenced?
...because what you said '[i]ANY 'ee' can have a black based foal[/i]' could be interpreted as any chestnut can produce a black-based foal and, strictly speaking, they cannot because they lack the black-based E gene.
You needed to clarify that you meant it was an ee horse’s *agouti status* (AA or Aa) that would/could prevent it from being able to sire/birth a visually black-colored, black-based, foal. Said foal having received the black-based E gene [i]from the other EE/Ee parent[/i] and the AA/Aa/aa agouti status combination of the sire/dam affecting that black-based foal to make it an agouti derivative of a black-based color; bay, buckskin, perlino and unable to produce aa black colors.
Don't mind me, I was stuck on stupid semantics. :roll:

You got the agouti bit right, but no that's not entirely what I was talking about.

Semantics or not, the reality is that any 'ee' horse CAN have an 'Ee' foal. My chestnut mare can have a bay foal very easily (she can never have a black foal, but that's irrelevant).

...[i]back to semantics[/i]... Yes, an ee can have an Ee, but that E will *always* come from the other parent, never the ee horse. I felt you needed to clarify that she could never have a black foal [i]because of her Agouti status and how that would affect any E gene from the other parent[/i]. Your mention of ee and non-mention of agouti could be confusing to people trying to learn *why*.