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Appy Spots

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accphotography
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Re: Appy Spots

Exactly. The only thing a fewspot or snowcap guarantees you is a foal with LP (unless it also happens to be homozygous for a PATN, but that is not necessary for it to be a fewspot or snowcap) and thus you may only get characteristics. It still way ups the % of getting a colored foal as opposed to a leopard or blanket because you're guaranteeing the LP, then you just have to pray for the PATN (which even a solid mare could throw so that helps even more).

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PamelaTX
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Re: Appy Spots

Although I don't know about these being leopards...
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/hannaf..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/abby20..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think those are near leopards


I like this fewspot...
:love
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/ebonyf..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is that really a few spot? I thought they were nearly all white,but I don't know much about appys.

See thats what I think too...near leopards.

Yes ma'am she's a few spot. I just love her!!! LOVEd her from the moment I saw after she was born.
I want one just like her or a leopard if I was to get an appy!!!
Actually Ebony is in TX!!!!
Here's a link...

http://www.crazyladyranch.com/absoluteco..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CMhorses
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Re: Appy Spots

Are PATN homozygotes possible?

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Daylene Alford
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Re: Appy Spots

False few spots and snow caps can happen when LP combines with sabino or splash (can't remember which) in such a way as to offer a "boost" to the PATN.

Yes a horse can be homozygous for PATN. Don't ask me to identify patterns though :rofl

CMhorses
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Re: Appy Spots

To me it sounded like any patterned appy could be homozygous or heterozygous for PATN and it wouldn't make a difference, it was the Lp that made the visual difference. I was just wondering if homozygotes were possible because from the 100% color producer convo,it sounded like it wasn't;meaning you could still get just a varnish.

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accphotography
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Re: Appy Spots

Nope there are horses that truly are 100% patterned producers. Those are believed to be LPLP PATNPATN.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

1: Black with large blanket and varnish.

2: Chestnut leopard or very near leopard.

3: Chestnut with off chance of palomino snowcap.

4: Bay with very small blanket and varnish.

5: Bay with very large blanket and roaning.

Since I'm on the dial-up right now, it's a tad hard to post on the pix posts themselves (I lose the photos when I hit reply), so I'm tagging onto ACC's post as she's got them nicely organised for me (ta!)

1--yep, black, blanket+varnish roan

2--leopard, I would hazard he lost the smudging on foal shed (I can probably find out for sure, as I 'know' Julie.)

3--most likely chestnut (remember, Lp can put white mane/tail even where there's non-white coat)...I'm hesitant on the snowcap...there's something not quite 'snowcappy' about that blanket, but I can't pinpoint what. I'd like to see other/better photos--full side, that sort of thing.

4--agreed on base, would say that pattern is blanket + varnish roan maybe snowflakes as well

5--agreed, altho' some would push the "near leopard" descriptor on this last one.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

I am thinking Snowcap too, but that lacing down around the legs and shoulders, would that play a part in the Snowcap or more like just a blanket

I would chance to say that there is roaning going on as well with this one, which might be what is "muddying" the snowcap look for me.

Any chance of baby photos on this guy?

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

is this a better example of leopard?
http://www.equi-passions.com/Races/Loisi..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yep, a nose-to-toes leopard, complete with halo spots (not a requirement for being leopard, btw, just a name for that type of spot, aka peacock spots)

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

Although I don't know about these being leopards...
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/hannaf..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/abby20..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think those are near leopards

The first one I would definitely toss into "near leopard". Second one, I'd be tempted to say blanket with roaning.


I like this fewspot...
:love
http://www.sawyercreek.com/images/ebonyf..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is that really a few spot? I thought they were nearly all white,but I don't know much about appys.

Yes, fewspots can have smudging in what I call the "pits" areas...behind the front legs/in front of the back legs, on the chest, legs...this little guy definitely qualifies as at least a near fewspot, but most would call him 'fewspot'.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

So what is it that makes Horse #3 a snowcap and Horse #5 not a snowcap...is it the amount of spotting or lack there of in the white; or the way that "blanket is running up the neck on #5. Boy i hope that made sense it did in my brain.

A snowcap is a blanket pattern, a fewspot is a leopard pattern. Because Lp is an incomplete dominant, heterozygotes and homozygotes have different appearances--that being a "clean" (mostly) pattern without spotting. Horse 5 has too much spotting in the pattern to be a snowcap.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

gah..i typed wrong in my last post..i meant horse Two, not horse three. Was rushing out the door to go look at puppies with my mom and aunt when I replied...lol

In Horse 2's photo, there's something "muddy" looking about the blanket. It's hard for me to explain, but he makes me think of Newboy's blanket, which looks all white from certain angles, but then he shifts and you can see the spots in his blanket. That's why I'm hesitant to say snowcap.

I love the Sawyer Creek appys...I was able to meet Hi Tech Cowboy at Equine Affaire here in OH a year or two before he died...such a polite stallion too.

One of Hi-Tech's sons just did very well at Nationals--took Reserve :D

another question and I don't have the picture to back it up....but was told false fewspot when I asked someone else about it. I found an appy foal for sale somewhere and he was out of a QH dam with a fairly generous blaze and some white on her legs. He was by an appy with just some hip spotting and maybe a narrow blaze and a sock or two...the foal looked solid white, a bit of dark around the ears and eyes and armpits and a spot or two on his barrel, rump and shoulders. What causes that to happen?

"False" fewspots and "false" snowcaps are getting a boost from another "white" gene (often sabino, maybe splash), which gives the impression that the pattern is spotless. Also, even when the spots are visible, sabino (maybe other white genes) seem to make for a smaller spot size.

Diane

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

So are you saying a Lplp only horse will have characteristics, such as the scelera and striped hooves and mottled skin and could possibly roan, while a LpLp horse will be 'varnish roan' and also have the characteristics?
I can definately see how they get 'random' appaloosas out of solids, one has a Lp, one has a PATN-so both could be 'invisible'; breed them together and bam...appaloosa!

That's my opinion on the "how-did" of these "suddenly appearing" AQHA-registered appaloosa-patterned horses.

Also it is not really known (I'm sure it's theorized but I don't know what the theory is) what happens when a horse is LPlp + PATN1PATN2 and other combinations of both PATNs.

To me that sounds like the horses that are near leopards;with the dark heads,legs and sometimes neck/shoulder.

Last I had heard, the idea was that a horse with PATN-1, whether one or two copies, would be a nose-to-toes pattern (leopard/fewspot), so a horse having Patn-1 and Patn-2 would exhibit a nose-to-toes pattern but could produce a blanket (or whatever).

Okay, I've given up on trying to see photos on dial-up, and since Melanie does a variety of breeding ApHC and ApSHA type horses, I can't begin to guess which photos are what...I'll have to come back to those, if you still have questions.

Diane

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: Appy Spots
I am thinking Snowcap too, but that lacing down around the legs and shoulders, would that play a part in the Snowcap or more like just a blanket

I would chance to say that there is roaning going on as well with this one, which might be what is "muddying" the snowcap look for me.

Any chance of baby photos on this guy?

Diane

I know the person who owns him...she picked him up at an auction as a yearling or two year old I think...but I can see if she has younger photos of him...

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: Appy Spots

http://www.chevalcailleranch.com/sitebui..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

now what pattern is this one?

TheRedHayflinger
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Re: Appy Spots
I am thinking Snowcap too, but that lacing down around the legs and shoulders, would that play a part in the Snowcap or more like just a blanket

I would chance to say that there is roaning going on as well with this one, which might be what is "muddying" the snowcap look for me.

Any chance of baby photos on this guy?

Diane

I know the person who owns him...she picked him up at an auction as a yearling or two year old I think...but I can see if she has younger photos of him...

okay..here you go Diane
She bought him at auction as a yearling(just over turning 1 year old) and here are his yearling shots.
IMAGE(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/Factions/013_13.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/Factions/011_11.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/Factions/010_10.jpg)

he is a 3 year old in the first picture I posted of him earlier in the thread.

AppyLady
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Re: Appy Spots

Another dial-upper here -- I gave up trying to look at the pictures on the first page. :?

Patn-1 can be anywhere from 60% to 100% white, with the average around 80%. Those in the 60 to 80% range are often referred to as near-leopards. Sometimes the lower level of expression can easily be confused with a large spotted blanket.

One theory (and I know there are exceptions) is that two copies of Patn-1 will more often produce a nose-to-toes leopard, and one copy will more often produce a near-leopard. Most of the nose-to-toes leopards (and few-spots) sired by my fewspot stallion have been out of Appaloosa mares, and the near-leopard foals have been out of Quarter Horse mares.

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Spots

On the last link, Hay, I'd call that a near fewspot. On the auction horse, I'm still on the fence of snowcap vs false snowcap, altho' I think I now pinpointed why I'm not ready to give up the false snowcap possibility. If you look at the spots on the auction horse, they are smaller and less "crisp" than the handful of spots on the last link. Non-app white boost frequently affects the size of the spots.

Diane

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