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Appy Question

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CMhorses
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Appy Question
I don't really understand the appy genes at all, so I was wondering, is it possible to get any pattern from a horse that carriers a pattern? For example, could I have the chance of getting a pattern other than varnish from a varnish stallion? I was mainly wondering because I wanted to breed my jenny to my cusins varnish stallion and the appy hinnys/mules are always the loudest.
accphotography
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Re: Appy Question

If I'm not mistaken, varnish isn't a pattern, it's a product of LP. If the animal is varnish only, it may not even have a pattern to pass on.

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CMhorses
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Re: Appy Question

I thought I heard somewhere that varnish or 'frosted' was a pattern, but I'm usually wrong lol.
Accually I think it was on the old EQ website under the appy thing... anyway, I'll look into it.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

Yes, it is possible to get more pattern from what you'd normally expect from a given set of parents (got that going on in my Casey). That's part of the appy "problem"--the whole pattern thing does not always follow normal "laws" of gene inheritance. In fact, I would say the "not-following" could be as common as the "following".

Diane

CMhorses
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Re: Appy Question

So is varnish an appy pattern?
And if so, in theory it could be possible to get like a blanket or something from one?

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Re: Appy Question

I heard something on NPR this morning and this is as good a place as any to post it.

The discussion was about particle physics but I think it applies to science in general. Someone asked the guest if he "believed in" a certain theory and he said that he's a scientist and does not "believe in" anything until it is experimentally proven. He went on to say that he has confidence that it is he best approach currently on the table. If there were a better theory, he would turn his attention toward it.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

So is varnish an appy pattern?
And if so, in theory it could be possible to get like a blanket or something from one?

People call "varnish" an appy pattern, but the thing is, varnish is the result of Lp roaning out and leaving colour dumps...and it "grows" over time. And, like snowflake, it is possible to exist with other patterns, unlike the "normal" patterns (blanket/leopard).

And yes, it is, theoretically, possible to get a blanket from one--take a look at Princess...her mother is a varnish something , and she definitely has a blanket.

Diane

CMhorses
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Re: Appy Question

Well thats cool that it might be possible that he carries some pattern. I was told he was appy even before he varnished but I'm not sure what his parents looked like, and if I am understanding this right, he may not carry other patterns but could still pass on the varnish?

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

As far as getting a coloured mule, remember, unless the stallion is homozygous (snowcap/fewspot), there's only a 50% chance of Lp being passed on, as the jinny can't pass on a copy at all. There is something weird that happens with Lp when mixed with donkey genetics, and the whyfor and howcome just is not grasped.

Diane

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Re: Appy Question

Yea I know theres only a 50% chance on passing on the gene. I was just wondering that if it did pass if there was a chance of something other than varnish passing on. Plus Ellie definately carries the spotting pattern so that increases the chances of a hinny with white in general.
Thanks for the appy info, helps alot.

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Re: Appy Question

OK, it's time for the....."I once had a characteristics only mare" story again.
Mare was bay base, no real sclera, no spots at all, one stripey hoof, but, hey, any horse can have that!!
Her mother was a slightly marked, Buckskin base (so the pattern of frosting may well have been missed)
She was bred to a Red Dun Shetland (no "spotted" bloodlines whatsoever, EVER we are talking UK, "proper" Shetland here, there have never been any spotted Shetland Ponies. Remember there have been spotted Fjords!!) and I know the person who owned, at the time the mare, and the stallion, so I can say there is more chance of the Pope (this pope, not one from history) fathering a child than of there having been a "fence jumper".
The mare had the loudest, brightest, all singing and all dancing Bay based colt I have ever seen, honestly you could hear him coming two miles away.
He was a Blanket on Bay, but he had black and Bay spots on the blanket and then black spots extending up over the rest of his coat.
The black and bay spots on the Blanket were large elliptical shaped spots, the ones extending onto his coat were small and round, so I would say he had at least two Appy patterns going on, possibly he had Varnish as well, but he was sold and dropped from sight, so I do not know.
He was not stallion quality, so I am pretty sure he was gelded, but it would have been interesting to see if he threw his pattern(s)

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

There's that black suppression thing again...

Diane

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Re: Appy Question

Sorry...what????

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Sara
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Re: Appy Question

Perhaps she is referring to the way some black based animals seem to suppress white patterns.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

Yep, there's evidence that black seems to have an affect on how "readily" Lp white patterning expresses itself.

Diane

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Appy Question

I'm sorry Diane, I must be going through a really dense patch but I do not understand your comment at all, how does that apply??
Are you saying that the mare was suppressed?
She had characteristics, and slight frosting, on Bay, that is all....oh and I think a striped hoof, can't remember, sorry. :sign

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Jenks
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Re: Appy Question

On your mare, being suppressed in her show of white, yet passing it on? Maybe? :D

NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

In a nutshell, Jenks has it. There seems to be phenotypic evidence that shows that black "stops" PATN gene(s) from allowing the full-blown expression of Lp coat patterning...so a black-based mare showing characteristics may have the necessary gene(s) for a large pattern but not exhibit that large pattern herself because something is preventing that higher level of expression.

Diane

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Re: Appy Question

Aaah..... :sign

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lillith
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Re: Appy Question

Yet the foal was also black based, bay yup? Both mare and foal were bay but black surpressed the spots in one and not the other?

Surely theres more surpressors than just black based going on.

As for black surpressing does being het/hom E have any bearing?

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rabbitsfizz
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Re: Appy Question

In my case the foal was Bay base but sired by a Red Dun.
I am not completely sold on this theory, but I understand where it is going, and I do know that Sabino, for example, expresses more loudly on Red base males, so this is a similar theory.
Also of course just because something usuallyinhibits a pattern does not mean it always will do so, obviously so as we all have seen loud, black based Leopards.
The bit I have trouble with is the "Patn is present in all animals even those that have absolutely NO "spotted" heritage whatsoever" line, that has never made sense to me.

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NZ Appaloosas
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Re: Appy Question

What Rabbit said. :D

On Patn being in other breeds, from my understanding, the idea is that Patn (be it one or more genes) may not be an "appaloosa" gene, but something that works with Lp. As an example, look at the various levels of expression in tobiano and frame. Obviously, there is something going on that either allows or suppresses the level of expression, otherwise all frame, tobiano and splash horses would have the exact same pattern/level of patterning. Ergo, it "makes sense" that there is at least one gene that works in conjunction with the pattern-causing gene, which dictates the amount of patterning the pattern-causing gene can show.

And Occam's razor leads to the idea that the Patn gene(s) is in the entire horse population rather than being very specifically oriented for each type of patterning.

Is that clearer?

Diane