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Appaloosa Pattern Genes

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JNFerrigno
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Appaloosa Pattern Genes
So if I understand it correctly. LP is the on switch to all appaloosa patterns. It is also the control for Varnish Roan. And it's expression is determined by if it is LpLp or Lplp Reading up all this appaloosa stuff made me think back to when I used to work with appaloosa breeders. I remember them saying that for their program, colored x solid would throw color for them. And from what I saw, breeding their stud to the same QH mares always, and I mean ALWAYS threw loud color. Same chestnut mare threw 1 leopard and 2 near leopards. The black mare threw a black spotted blanket who varnished out after hitting 2 or 3, and a smoky black snow cap. They ha two nice dream finder mares, one which was called a leopard at the time..and I think she was probably something different, she looked like varnish and leopard. Her half sister was a deep chestnut varnish. Both of them bred to the same stallion produced characteristics I think, but I don't recall white on them. Then one year they changed their breeding program. He threw great halter sized babies, but they were to large after a year old to show in the ring any more, and became trained for in-hand and riders. They decided bring in some TB mares to breed hunter foals. Of the mares they brought down, not a single speck of color. So I began to think....what breeds have hidden pattern genes? EDIT: alright and now I confused myself even more. The stallion I worked with, Impress Gold Sun, was a Palomino and white...snow cap I think. I don't recall him having any spots. So if I read this article right, he would be LpLp and Pattern 2. Now granted the person that wrote the article is just a hobbiest but it seemed like they got the info off the Appaloosa genetics site. So if that was the case, he'd pass on one LP all the time. And if LP is Varnish roan....then his babies would be Varnish roan yes?
Threnody
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If he passed on LP without

If he passed on LP without his PATN gene then yes he would sire a varnish roan. It sounds like the breeders simply lucked out with breeding him to mares who had PATN1 but didn't express it since they lacked LP. I found and image of the stud and I don't think he was a supressed PATN1 so it had to come from the dams. There is no real way to know how many breeds have PATN1 until a gene test is made. The Appaloosa project is hopeful for having one within a year or so at the moment from what I've read.

Personally I'm curious as to whether donkeys carry PATN alleles and if a varnish mare is bred to a donkey jack could have a PATN mule foal.

JNFerrigno
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So is Patn 1 the Leopard

So is Patn 1 the Leopard Pattern? And a normal LPlp Patn 1 horse would be a leopard like this http://fireditto.deviantart.com/art/Tiki...

An LPLP Patn 1 would be http://larfsalot.deviantart.com/art/Stoc...

An LPlp Patn 2 would be http://equinestockimagery.deviantart.com... (assuming pattern 2 is blanket?)

An LPLP Patn 2 would be http://svrstock.deviantart.com/art/randy...

But then...if its LPLP doesn't it roan out from varnish roan, or is there something that surpreses the varnish expression? I ask because I worked with two chestnut snowcaps, one had splash the other has sabino.

So then what would an appaloosa look like that was hetero or homo for LP and had both patterns?

Are there any other patterns thought to exist?

What is the thing with Dilute Black in Appaloosas? Different then what is seen in Arabs? Recessive? Pattern linked?

Threnody
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The supposed LPLP PATN1 horse

The supposed LPLP PATN1 horse looks like he could possibly have sabino since his spots are more numerous and fairly small than what is seen on fewspots. Sabino can cause false fewspots and snowcaps since it boosts the white expression and makes it appear as if the animal has no or few spots mimicking a LPLP appearance in the PATN areas.

PATN1 and PATN2 are thought to be on separate loci. A horse could theoretically be homozygous for both patterns at the same time. As of now it appears that PATN1 does not express any differently in the presence of PATN2. So PATN2 would effectively be hidden by PATN1 in an LP individual. Homozygous PATN1 horses are more likely to have noes to toes white while heterozygotes are more likely to appear near leopard or near fewspot in appearance. High correlation in average sized horses but not a rule.

As of now there is not much known about the modifier that causes black pigment to decrease and be replaced with red pigment. It happens in many LP horses and is often in the middle of it's expression (ie a bay's legs turning more reddish but not turning completely chestnut. Ava's Minted design is on the extreme end of the color shift spectrum) I have seen an instance of a pali appy gaining black pigment but black gaining red is more common.

Hope this helps!

Monsterpony
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JNFerrigno wrote:The black

The black mare threw a black spotted blanket who varnished out after hitting 2 or 3, and a smoky black snow cap.
So I began to think....what breeds have hidden pattern genes?

This isn't possible if the mare was a QH as you can't get a snowcap unless both carry LP.

.

RiddleMeThis
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Monsterpony wrote:JNFerrigno
The black mare threw a black spotted blanket who varnished out after hitting 2 or 3, and a smoky black snow cap.
So I began to think....what breeds have hidden pattern genes?

This isn't possible if the mare was a QH as you can't get a snowcap unless both carry LP.

As has been shown at least a handful of times, QHs have been known to have LP. Rarely, but it's there.

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Daylene Alford
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It's possible the foal could

It's possible the foal could have been a pseudo snow cap if sabino was present.

It has been a while but there was a welsh cross foal that appeared to be a snow cap but of course couldn't have been. The only explanation was that sabino was boosting the white of the pattern.

RiddleMeThis
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http://www.quarterhorsespot.c

http://www.quarterhorsespot.com/

Appy registered AQHA

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JNFerrigno
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Threnody wrote:The supposed

Why is our quote always so screwy?

The supposed LPLP PATN1 horse looks like he could possibly have sabino since his spots are more numerous and fairly small than what is seen on fewspots. Sabino can cause false fewspots and snowcaps since it boosts the white expression and makes it appear as if the animal has no or few spots mimicking a LPLP appearance in the PATN areas.

Alright, so just making sure I understand (I've been asked to implement some color genetics into a game, and LP is something I'm severely lacking in knowledge. So it's important I know what it looks like and some what how he behaves.)

PATN 1 is thought to mask the effects of PATN 2.

A homo PATN 1 horse is thought to be full body leopard, while a hetero PATN 1 is more near leopard in appearance.

As has been shown at least a handful of times, QHs have been known to have LP. Rarely, but it's there.

I wish the website I made them was back up. It was on geocities and they bombed out years ago. I hadn't worked with this breeder in forever. From what I remember in person, she was a leased QH they had used before. I don't remember what horses they got from her before I got there as they used to breed QHs in the past, and I don't remember when Sunny retired to stud. I do know she had a spotted blanket colt...I want to say his name was Causin Chaos...or there was something in font of it. Last I remember, he was sold to a person in Canada, and I want to say he was gelded. I didn't see a picture of him after he was sold, but his breeder told me the new owner said he was completely roaned out. The only other foal I remember was Deja. I don't remember if that had any think to do with her name. And now that I think about it, I don't know if she was Black, Smoky Black, or that Dilute Black. She defiantly was not brown, bay, sooty, or pure black. She was kind of faded, and I wish I had images of her.

Alright I actually got my box of images out of the attic that survived the house fire. I have the two dream finder mares, the chestnut near leopards, Deja, and another horse I was mistaking for her. Deja had charcteristics, but no spotting on her. She was one of the ones I thought was splash, with that huge wedge of hers. I got her confused with the other one because her coat is that light black color. The other foal I have, had a blaze, and was a little snow cap, but I think she was a liver chestnut. Are foals even liver chestnut at under a year? Mane tail and body all one dark muddy color.

I did find another foal of his who isn't spotted, but I thought was interesting. She was one of the last ones born in the area before they moved. A new born foal just photographed the day after or next day, Sooty Buckskin. So darn sooty she is almost black.

I also have a pre-show photo of Chaos. Spotted blanket with HUGE spots and halo marks around all his spots.

SO yeah, after all that rambling, no white on Deja. That was some one else who I have no idea who she came from.

Threnody
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If a horse has a near leopard

If a horse has a near leopard or near fewspot appearance it is more likely heterozygous PANT1, correct. This is a range of 60-80% of the animal being covered in PATN for them to be classified as "near". So a horse with a large blanket that spills onto their shoulders is likely a very suppressed heterozygous PATN1.

JNFerrigno
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So would Snowflake pattern be

So would Snowflake pattern be a type of Varnish roan or a different Pattern Gene? http://xxhorseback.deviantart.com/art/ap...

Should I throw in a random white suppressor gene into the mix? For the game I mean.

And just to throw this out there, you wont find this in any articles I write, as it's all heavy theory and some free lance imagination, but does this sound about right?

LP lp PATN1 = Near Leopard (Large Spots) Like This

LP lp PATN1 PATN1 = Leopard (Normal Spots)

LP lp PATN2 = Spotted Blanket

LP lp PATN2 PATN2 = Spotted Blanket

LP LP PATN1 = False Leopard (near leopard varnished out)

LP LP PATN1 PATN1 = Few Spot Leopard

LP LP PATN2 = Varnish Blanket

LP LP PATN2 PATN2 = Varnish Blanket

LP lp PATN1 PATN2 = Near Leopard

LP lp PATN1 PATN1 PATN2 = Leopard

LP lp PATN1 PATN2 PATN2 = Near Leopard

LP lp PATN1 PATN1 PATN2 PATN2 = Leopard

LP LP PATN1 PATN2 = False Leopard

LP LP PATN1 PATN1 PATN2 = Few Spot

LP LP PATN1 PATN2 PATN2 = False Leopard

LP LP PATN1 PATN1 PATN2 PATN2 = False Leopard

And if an hetero LP horse may or may not varnish, could it be from a suppressing gene? So like for instance if I just threw in LP lp PATN2, the horse would be a Spotted Blanket, but may have a smaller blanket and not varnish later in life, where as a LP LP PATN2 would most likely varnish and have a larger blanket?

Daylene Alford
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Quote:LP LP PATN1 = False

LP LP PATN1 = False Leopard (near leopard varnished out)

This would be a few spot. As long as they have one copy of the pattern gene it will be a few spot or a snow cap. LPLP PATN1 PATN1 few spots will throw 100% leopards or near leopards while lPLP PATN1? will throw 100% LP but could throw LP only or one of the smaller pattern genes.

A false leopard would be LPlp with out PATN1. It could have one of the smaller pattern genes and varnish out or it could be without a pattern gene completely.

Near Leopards are thought to be LPlp PATN1 but with a suppressor.

JNFerrigno
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Smaller Pattern Genes? We

Smaller Pattern Genes?

We want to try and make this game as realistic as possible, but at the same time allow for a full expression of colors and patterns. So what would you suggest?

I know we've got the LP gene, and PATN 1 and 2, should I make up PATN 3 and 4? If so what would they end up being?

And I think I am going to throw in a surpressor which I will just have work with all other white patterns. Think it will work pretty well in the game actually.

Daylene Alford
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I meant anything not PATN1

I meant anything not PATN1 just did want to type out PATN2 PATN3 etc... I think it you could come close to producing all the patterns with PATN1 PATN2 and a white suppressor.

JNFerrigno
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Thank you guys for your help.

Thank you guys for your help. We will be making a genetics page on this game to explain what we are doing. There will also be a section for them to explore further. So I will be sure to include this great community.

Threnody
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I am so freaking excited for

I am so freaking excited for this thing you have no idea. :bounce

Also snowflake is a different expression of varnish roan where it just clumps into spots instead of more even flecks. It occurs most often on black based horses.

If you have the suppression gene that would be really amusing and interesting to see how it works in the program. Are you considering putting a pattern extension factor into the mix besides sabino? Just generally curious. ^_^

JNFerrigno
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Threnody wrote:If you have

If you have the suppression gene that would be really amusing and interesting to see how it works in the program. Are you considering putting a pattern extension factor into the mix besides sabino? Just generally curious. ^_^

I'll talk it over with the creator. Her hubby is doing to coding, and he hates it when we ask if it can be coded..his response is always 'Anything can be coded.'

So I could just do something like, adding + and - at the end of their genetic sequence.

So for instance:
Frame Overo (Oo, --) = For all intensive purposed, a Solid horse. Maybe a little star, or a blue eye.
Frame Overo (Oo, -) = Low expression. Maybe just a unique face marking.
Frame Overo (Oo) = Normal Expression
Frame Overo (Oo, +) = medium high expression
Frame Overo (Oo, ++) would be the loudest expression you could get without any other white patterns

And it would work like that for all patterns. Thinking of doing that for Dominate white, instead of all the different types of DW. For DW we will have that gene in the breeds which have been identified, but we will also be making it a spontaneous mutation.

What do you think?

JNFerrigno
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Would there be a physical

Would there be a physical difference between

LP lp PATN2 = Spotted Blanket
LP lp PATN2 PATN2 = Spotted Blanket

Threnody
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It's suspected that

It's suspected that homozygous PATN2 likely expresses more than heterozygous PATN2 but how much so and exactly what happens is undefined.

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