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Albino ? ? ?

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Songcatcher
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Albino ? ? ?
An e-acquaintance posted this on the Smallest Horse Group forum and gave me permission to post it here.
A friend of mine had a filly born a few days ago, and she appears to be an albino. At first I thought cremello or perlino, since she's out of a buckskin mare, by a pally stallion. But this filly has RED eyes! I'm not talking bloodshot or anything like that, truly red eyes. I've never seen anything like it! Her vet wasn't sure if it's albino, since he's never seen one either! Has anybody ever heard of a true albino horse? She's gonna send hair samples to have her color tested, but not sure if that will really help or not. BTW, she gave me permission to post about this. She also said the filly sorta acts like a preemie. She nurses fine, but just seems a little slow to her. Melba So, what do you all think? That's not 'flash' red eye, that's the color of her eyes! Melba
Here are pictures: IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/Albino1.jpg) IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/albino2-1.jpg) IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/Albinoeyes.jpg) Looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this.
Jenks
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Well, there is nothing to support Albino exists, but I suppose it's possible. They are sure it's not a lethal white? With two creme parents is seems more likely a cremello, but I can't really tell if the eyes are really pink of the flash is just reflecting off the retina...it appears to be ringed in blue in the last photo to me. I'm going with cremello.

lipigirl
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I am with jenks on this one, most of what people used to think of as albinos were double dilutes, this one still looks like a cremello to me. Can we have eye pictures without a flash please. :D

Jenks
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Did someone prove at one time that albino horses could not exist because of the cause of no color being formed at the same time as organs were forming - the intestine (same protein forms each or something) during the neural crest cell migration? Or am I confusing it with LWO? I see a lot of reference to albinos as LWOs.

Songcatcher
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I think double dilute is most likely as the dam is Buckskin and the sire Palomino, but if double dilute was the only cause of color, the eyes should be blue, shouldn't they? I have not seen this foal in person, but I am told here eyes are as red as they appear in this picture.

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

Jenks
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Ya - the eyes are blue in albinos really too. Just really light sometimes with red dots I think. Many people consider cremellos albino it seems (even some registries)- shocker! ....so. She can call it what ever she wants. It's still a cremello - whether a cremello is albino or not would be the debate.

IMAGE(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/OCA1_Auge.jpg/220px-OCA1_Auge.jpg)

IMAGE(http://eyemakeart.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/fig-2b.jpg?w=300&h=234)

RiddleMeThis
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Well....according to Horsegen DD (and I believe single dilutes as well) ARE a type of albino. Its on an albinism gene, and actually the same one that one of humans albino mutations are on.

That being said I'm wondering if shes actually seen this filly in person. The eyes look like they could have been effected by the flash on the camera.

IMAGE(http://alterna-tickers.com/tickers/generated_tickers/i/ikmc9z103.png)

Jenks
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Well....according to Horsegen DD (and I believe single dilutes as well) ARE a type of albino. Its on an albinism gene, and actually the same one that one of humans albino mutations are on.

That being said I'm wondering if shes actually seen this filly in person. The eyes look like they could have been effected by the flash on the camera.

Then it's both or the same thing either way.....

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Yes, all CrCr are considered pseudoalbinos, I can't remember all the ins and outs of it.
The foal is very white, but, of course that means nothing....are they sure it is not a max Sabino??
The eyes look blue to me, too.

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Songcatcher
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I have asked the lady who gave me the pictures and original request to join our forum. I'm sure it would cause less complication if she answered questions directly. I'm not sure she spends as much time on the ccomputer as some of us do. :lol:

I'm assuming the dam is the Buckskin in the photo. I don't see any evidence of Sabino there, but who knows. The sire is Palomino, as stated above. Cremello would be the most obvious result, and I'm not trying to dispute that. I guess the real question is, has anyone ever seen eyes that red in a horse? I'm told they are as red in person as they are in that photo.

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I suppose a lot would rely on how much experience the person has with animals with eyes this colour?

website: please come and visit... http://www.shadowplayminihorses.co.uk/

Dogrose
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I can't see why a horse couldn't have an albino mutation that is the same as other animals e.g. rabbit, squirrel, wallaby, human etc. on the C locus. Is Cr in horses on the C locus? Some pink and red eyed mutations in fancy rats are not on the C locus at all, just to confuse things.
I agree albino eyes can look pale and slightly greyish in some species. Rabbits can have pink eyes like this, and humans. In rabbits though the eyes are very pink in babies and only get the greyish/mauvish look when the rabbit matures. Albino fancy rats keep their all-over pink eye colour.
So I'd wait til there are clear non flash pics to be more sure.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Morgan
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

It just looks like camera red eye. If the eye was pink it would be the outer part of the eye, which is clearly greyish blue here. That kind of thing happens in pictures all the time if you use a flash to take a picture of someone who's been in a dark room so the pupils are large. Here's a picture of my filly in the dark when she was born, same sort of effect.
IMAGE(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/DangerRanch/Filly6.jpg)

Songcatcher
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Yes Morgan, I understand that, and the person who sent me the pictures does also. The point is that she says they are that red even in person and is wondering if anyone else has seen similar. I have not seen the foal in person, but have no reason to doubt her word. I have emailed her, asking for more pictures.

BTW, I love your filly.

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

accphotography
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I agree it's a camera flash thing. As to why the person is seeing red in person, I have no idea. I'd like to see that myself, or see photos taking in daylight without a flash.

Yes, cream is on the C locus from what I understand. It's MATP (the gene responsible for at least one albinism mutation in humans).

IMAGE(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Misc/Sig.png) IMAGE(http://phrf.pitapata.com/uno2m5.png)

Monsterpony
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I believe that the red you are seeing is the tapetum and other inner eye surface through the lens of the eye. The iris itself is pale blue. The tapetum is normally blue/green on a horse and the surrounding inner eye surface is black. This can be pink in double dilutes and white patterned horses especially appys. It is the similar to the red eye in photos of people since we don't have a heavily pigmented tapetum. That same shot of a normally pigmented horse would have a yellow/green appearance.

.

Heidi
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Our new kitty, a meezer-mix (grade Siamese) of course has blue eyes that will show up with red-eye in photos w/ flash ... but I feel there have been a few times when I've just been watching him play with the other cats and I see his eyes flash red ... just like photo-flash-red on blue-eyes.

I'll keep an eye out to specifically note when I *do* see it.

rabbitsfizz
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

That's because he is a Devil Cat, Heidi and belongs in the basement!

MP I think that is the most likely explanation.....

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Jenks
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Haha! Send her that info SongC! LOL Gotta love the scientific explanations!

Dogrose
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

My very dilute siamese boy (colourpoint is a partial albino colour on the C locus) had a red flash in his eyes, he didn't have the world's best eyesight either, albino and partially albino eyes get damaged easily by light.
Albinos are actually any colour 'underneath' the white, they have normal melanocytes so aren't prone to deafness or nerve development problems unless the genes for that are there as well. The melanocytes just don't activate and produce pigment. I think the only health problem associated directly with pink eyed white albinism is from light damage to skin and eyes.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

Monsterpony
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I have photos of the colors seen in the normal inner eye of the horse if any wants to see. Horses (and dogs/cats/deer/anything that has good night vision) all have a pigmented tapetum to allow for better night vision.

.

Heidi
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I have photos of the colors seen in the normal inner eye of the horse if any wants to see. Horses (and dogs/cats/deer/anything that has good night vision) all have a pigmented tapetum to allow for better night vision.

I'd like to see. Do you have comparison pics between different eye colors or different species?

I remember eye-shine is the reason I first cussed in front of my mother. I was about 14, ready for bed and giving my Mom a hug/kiss goodnight when I saw bouncing red eyes running towards me from the darkened family room. I leapt backwards, almost landing in Mom's lap, and cried out: "Sh__!" as my dark-colored Siamese raced from the livingroom, through the hall and then made a sharp L turn up the stairs to get to my bedroom before me.
Oh, that was freaky! AND, an added benefit, my Mom was also freaked out by the bouncing red eyes and didn't punish me for my inappropriate outburst.

Jordie0587
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I'm willing to bet that the cream gene is in all actuality a type of albinism.

Lots of the "pro" albino people in dobermans (neanderthals) argue that they aren't albinos because they have blue eyes instead of red and their "rust" is WHITE while the rest of them are creamy. However, research into it proves that they are a type of tyrosinase positive albino. Their eyes reflect red in a camera flash instead of the usual yellow-green of other dogs.
IMAGE(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u146/Jordie0587/My%20pets/410039369_1421290677_0.jpg)
My boyfriends dog Draco is a rescued albino dobie, the fawn is my girl Amara :)

Also, rodents eyes seem pink/red because they have huge pupils that reflect red like sometimes happens with flash in humans. If you look at the very edge of an albino rats eye, you can often see the tiny blue ring. Their eye is just mostly pupil so people assume their irises are red and that's not the case.

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Dogrose
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I've never had a red or pink eyed rat with a bluish iris, you can often see the pupil and the iris is definitely red or pink, in my experience only the black eyed gene that puts black eyes on albino series rats have large pupils. Those are very strange eyes- black as black can be.
I'd post pics but I've forgotten my photobucket password and they have locked me out :roll:
There are plenty of C locus varieties of animals that aren't pure white.

[color=#804000][i]I bought me a horse twas called a grey mare
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Grey mane and grey tail and green stripe on her back
Weren't a hair upon her that was not coal black[/i][/color]

RiddleMeThis
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I'm willing to bet that the cream gene is in all actuality a type of albinism.

**Cough** http://forum.equine-color.info/viewtopic..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; **cough** :toast

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Danni
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

LOL, yep it makes sense to me!

Jordie0587
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Oops, somehow missed that post lol.

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Songcatcher
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

OK, I finally got new photos of this foals eyes, and it appears that you all were right (imagine that). :ymsmug: The foal's eyes have turned blue over a few days. Here are the photos:

IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/AlbinoCremelloeye4.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/AlbinoCremelloeye3.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/AlbinoCremelloeye2.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/FreelandNash/Reference%20horses/AlbinoCremelloeye1.jpg)

Appears typical Cremello.

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

Jenks
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Still Albino accordingly apparently!

Songcatcher
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

I just got this information passed on to me from the owner of the foal. Please keep in mind that I have not been in direct contact with the owner and I am just forwarding information sent to me.

Hey Freeland

Cindy just sent this to me. Her vet wrote down what her eyes actually look like! Maybe you can post this on the color site and see if anybody's heard anything like it before.

Melba

Hi Guys !

It's me again about this little filly ... I had my vet come today I have a sick mare actually its the mare of the lite colored filly . She examined the filly because she said her eyes looked differant to her too that they looked red . We were in the barn .. She wrote down for me what she seen and so maybe you guys can tell me if you have ever experienced this before . She has blue Iris, Tapetum-red and pupil clear. She said she has never seen anything like this before . Have you guys ? Thanks for your advice !! cindy

http://www.sunrae.com/windgatefarms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Freeland Nash Valliant, OK 74764 www.songcatcherranch.webs.com

lipigirl
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Re: Albino ? ? ?

Well i googled it and it doesn't seem that unusual to me, the reflective lense is red which might be why the horse appears to have red eyes - am not sure what is going on.....we need better pics.

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