Black or Brown?

definatley looks black to me, as a true black dosent have abrown muzzle :-) I LOVE those dark browns!!!

I think brown. (And Im fairly sure dakota meant to say brown in place of black :p)

I am not a pro, BUT:

First one is brown
Second one is black from what I can see.
3rd one is smokey black or brown ? Unsure!
4th one is brown
5th one is brown

I used to call browns black bays - that is how we register them in the AHA

LOL well from looking on my monitor I would say all black with sunfade :rofl

Well some are a bit hard to see the muzzle on my monitor, but yes I think they are brown if they are black with an obvious tan or red muzzle. So most of those would be brown to my thinking. Well actually I call them black bays as well :oops: but I get that the ones that I call brown, and these 'black bay' ones are probably all browns.

opps yes I meant brown :lol:

they look black + sun bleach to me

The second pic is the first horse - but you can't see his brown muzzle.

Still brown on Rio - black bay in my world!

Listen to this: there's a mare back on my college campus that was solid black with a brown muzzle when she was a 2 or 3-year-old. But once she was kept indoors, her muzzle turned black and stayed that way even as she lived outside 24-7. Does that mean she was an actual black? Hence, another reason why I get confused around black and brown horses!

As a rule, if you have a horse who appears jet black but has a glaring ring of brown around the muzzle, they are not genetically black. The tan muzzle is a red herring that what you've got is a form of bay, variously described as brown, seal, black bay, or just plain dark bay. I wouldn't lay odds on any of the horses pictured being true black from these pictures. Bleaching will occasionally play tricks, as well as seasonal changes, foal shed, etc. The mare you describe, I would go with brown for her as well. Just playing the odds, brown is simply more common because it is a form of bay, and genetically, it is the most common color in the domestic horse population. Many people have wished they had a black horse, and called it black, but it is truly bay.

Can true black horses bleach around their muzzle or does their face stay completely black year round?

Someone here has a collection of sunfaded, color tested blacks don't they?

They can fade on their face, but IMO its NOT common, and usually looks different than a brown/dark b ay.

Heres a mare owned by a forum member who passed away (the mare, not the forum member). Shes black but heavily faded. You can kinda see some fading on her face.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/…]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/…]

Here's one: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/181/4151…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; test results on: http://blackberry-lane.blogspot.com/200…" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone know this person? Neat blog -

RMT beat me to it! But yes, they don't look like browns, though some folks call them phentypical "browns" it is not the same as a genetically black horse that is faded. "fading blacks" called "Brown" is really confusing.

Wow, now that's bleached!

[quote="Jenks"]http://blackberry-lane.blogspot.com/200…

Anyone know this person? Neat blog - [/quote]

It is! I was just looking at her colour charts too

I really like Blackberry Lane Pottery's blogs and when she finds old photos of horse colors that are extinct in their breed.

I tried to email her, but I get an anti spam message that requires I fill out a form and the link doesn't bring up anything....

Neat horse art there too.

Sorry to veer off-track here....

I have two tested blacks that fade soooo bad! worse than the horse above, but there heads are ALWAYS black and so are there muzzles.

This is a filly of mine born this year. She's just starting to lose her foal coat. She's definitely a black, not brown or bay. But where she has lost her coat already you can see some brown on her muzzle and around her eyes. It's just bleaching.

[img]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/378/20…]

This is a really old picture of me with a mare I used to own, she was pitch black all over, except for her muzzle. I always thought of her as a brown/black bay, not a black. Even though at the shows she got make up on her muzzle and then looked really proper pitch black. Plus she's got a bit of a winter coat in this picture, so the light muzzle is more obvious. It's different to the filly above though. I was never in any doubt that the mare was black bay as I called her then, and never doubted the filly above is black. It's just a different look.

[img]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5703…]

Wasn't it admin that had a tested black foal with a brown nose?

That first filly of mine above, her sire and dam are tested no agouti

Just going on what my black foals have done, lighter colours on the face etc are not that uncommon in foals.
My homozygous black stallion, who is coal black & never fades at all, even in our hot Aussie sun, looked like he was turning buckskin as a foal, he had lovely honey, golden goggles.

I also had a daughter of his who at weaning was chocolate coloured with white hair in her ears & a gingery coloured mane & tail. I had her tested, & yep, she was plain old black.
Matured quite black too.

Yes, I have a tested blue roan that faded very badly when he shed his foal coat. Interestingly though, he has faded very little the past two summers but I don't have any good pics.

Daylene